20bits - Latest Comments in 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Tom — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:40:24 -0000

The good thing is that there is an active community. First off. Things can change and things can be fixed.
Second, there's more ways to get the results you're after with Drupal.

That being said. I believe Drupal has a time and place. Most times these problems won't really be problems. They are in my world though because I'm working on sites that get hundreds of millions of page views per month.

So I agree, but at that point...At my frustration level...At your disappointment...Drupal isn't the right tool for the job. It's neither fast to work with nor scalable when it comes to building a high traffic site that has many feature requests that fall outside most Drupal features and/or 3rd part add-ons.

I wouldn't worry so much that it's procedural at heart. The real problem is...It's not scalable! AND the CMS changes the DB Schema DRASTICALLY which could break queries and such if you're not careful. So to make non-breaking, future/change proof queries...You MUST use Drupal functions that then make inefficient queries. Drupal is a JOIN monster and trust me...Under load...It's really, really bad.

So I feel your pain, but I also think that casual web sites shouldn't be discouraged because Drupal can help you put up a web site really fast. Just not develop a custom CMS quickly. Rapid content deployment. Not rapid development. If you can see the distinction.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Robert — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:32:37 -0000

It is a same that people become overly defensive of your statements. I guess the ole statement of those that fight the hardest to defend their code may deep down have doubt of it's quality.

Back to your article I agree with your assessments, recently I worked on a very large project for a university (http://www.pdx.edu). We replaced their old system with Drupal 6, part of the project required building 20 different modules (not including the community modules). The design was replicated into 60+ websites. Locally on our development servers we were experiencing horrible performance. Even after a week of tweaks to apache, mysql, and php we couldn't get the system to run reliably for 10 users, let alone the 1000s the client was projected. Luckly the client's server architecture was more robust. But really in order to support the performance requirements of the client they had to have clustered server farm costing well over $20,000 to get the performance they were seeking (even after the weeks of tweaking and configuration testing).

There are some interesting efforts to improve Drupal but most are focused on replacing the lame caching system with more stable and well vetted systems like memcache. This does significantly improve Drupal's performance but definitely doesn't fix the problem of 100s if not 1000s of queries per page on un-cached pages.. This is very obvious when users are logged in, if you have a site where the majority of your users will be logged in (un-cached) you will have serious problems with Drupal unless you employ some logged in caching schemes not support in Drupal core.

So all of the developers who LOVE Drupal but lack experience can defend it all they want. I use it because in some cases it works.. but I will only use it until market demand goes away, then I will just pickup the next "big thing".

But hey that is just me.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

esmailzadeh — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:33:09 -0000

hi
i think node_load is a very bad idea for load a group of nodes in teaser view
if view want to show a result of nodes that all of them have same content type,
we can fetch all of them from db in one time
i think this is a basic problem for drupal.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Acai alive berry — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 02:39:23 -0000

You're right, the views module doesn't necessarily execute node_load. It does, however, for both full and teaser node lists. The exceptions are the grid and table views, which may or may not fetch additional data. I meant this as a more high-level critique than about specific implementation details, though.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

seo company uk — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:03:41 -0000

Thanks for this article, this is really helpful.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

edwinwood0421ac — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:35:06 -0000

very helpful article

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Malaysia Seo Web Designer — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:21:36 -0000

Basically i think you should read more technical manual, because customize a 3rd party software isnt that easy.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Idaho Falls — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:28:32 -0000

In my opinion Drupal is the best option out there for someone who wants to build a fast, solid multi-user site. They've come a long way in the past couple o fyears.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Kaveh — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:42:31 -0000

As I am working on developing a Drupal module (for integrating another product), I hate it more and more and I am by now full of Drupal hatred! There would be no more Drupal development in my resume! (Actually - as a feed to ego - I have already kicked Drupal out of another project! Believe it or not; it was amazingly refreshing!)

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Matt — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:41:22 -0000

Calvin,

I used to have similar thoughts about Drupal, and I have to say that while I find Drupal extremely idiosyncratic (getting your head around themes can be a bear in itself), it does have some useful applications. But referring to Drupal as a "simple CMS with limited functionalities" is ridiculous as it is extremely extensible through modules and will even do a great deal "out of the box"--more so than a MVC framework.

I've also had difficulties creating new corporate web sites with CMS--both commercial and open source, ASP.Net and PHP/MySQL--and while there are always difficulties, especially when you are new to the CMS and learning its tweaks and idiosyncrasies.

The proof is in the pudding, however: Many fine sites--even large sites--have been built with Drupal and there is even some admiration in the MVC world: Zed Shaw, the author of the mongrel web server and developer, stated that . . .

"While you can do a CMS in Rails, there are much more efficient technologies for the task, such as Drupal and Django. (In fact, I'd say if you're looking at a Java Portal development effort, you should evaluate Drupal and Django for the task instead.) " Source: http://www.cio.com/article/191000/You_Used_Ruby...

-Matt

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Calvin Cheng — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:28:08 -0000

Having been hired to hack on a few drupal sites in the past couple of years. And currently working on a major implementation based on drupal, I cannot agree more with Jesse's articles.

merlinofchaos: you might want to revisit the concept of a proper MVC implementation before becoming this defensive about Drupal.

I have worked with wordpress, magento (zf-based), joomla, drupal, some cakephp, zend and django and I can honestly say that the best way to develop a non-trivial, customized application is to build it from an MVC framework. Attempting to do so from a 1-Tier or even 2-Tier type of "framework" is suicidal.

Drupal is NOT a system I would ever recommend to anyone wanting to grow a non-trivial application. If you just want a simple cms with limited functionalities - fine. But for a custom app... it's ridiculous to even consider it. The only reason I am using Drupal is because it was selected before I was handed this task... I am seriously regretting my decision to take on this project... but I am trying my best to see it through.

If I have a say, I would dump the whole blardy application that I am currently forced to work on and rewrite it using django or even cakephp, zend framework...

I apologise if I hurt the feelings of Drupal diehard... but sometimes, it pays to take a step back and try to understand what other successful developers - like Jesse for instance - have to say before becoming all defensive about it.

I do not claim to be a highly skilled developer; but I do know a crap product from a good one; and I do understand what type of application (software) is best suited for what type of scenario.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

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Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

TNT — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:03:55 -0000

Excellent article. I have been working with Drupal which powers a site with 100's of thousands of data entries. I have encountered a few poorly designed modules that have brought our server to its knees, and am constantly scratching my head as to why certain design features and db table were chosen and used.

Recently, I have been trying out another open source CMS platform: MODx (MODxCMS), and so far am quite impressed by its simplicity. Of course, I am just starting out with it, but it is looking promising.

As with any thing in life, there are hardcore fanatics that will refuse to see the errors of their beloved ideologies.

Fortunately, the majority of the Drupal Community is more like Robert Douglass (maintainer of Buddylist module), and less like the type that would want to kill your cat for mentioning any flaw in their beloved system. My hope is that Drupal will take constructive criticism and evolve... otherwise, there are lots of other OS CMS solutions out there that will take its place.

Cheers!

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Matt — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:32:20 -0000

I agree with the general points of the article, but I would say that Drupal has very good application for small to medium content management sites. The integration options with Flash, JSON, etc, and the amount of time saved building content management functionality is quite substantial. However, if you're building the next Facebook or a "real" web application, Drupal probably isn't the way to go. However, after I got tired of writing and testing custom CMS solutions for small to mid-size sites, and dealing the the hosting difficulties that Rails raises, I've found Drupal to be of great use. I'm far more productive than I was earlier, and I spend far less time testing. When I get a client that wants to spend more money on a project that's totally custom, then I'd definitely opt for another framework like Django or Rails.

However, I think comparing Rails (or most other frameworks except maybe Django) to Drupal is a pretty poor comparison anyway, because Drupal gives you basic content management complete with user interface right out of the box, Rails (and other similar frameworks) give you ORM and maybe MVC and that's about it. Far more work required to get up and running.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Naruto Episodes — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:35:33 -0000

I have never really liked Drupal. It is hard to work with and maintain throughout the site when your using Drupal. I have fallen more towards WordPress because it is easy to install, easy to maintain, and easy to edit, change, and all that stuff. It helps me out a lot better than anything else, and I really like it.

Well those are my thoughts, thanks for the nice written post!

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

redben — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:08:00 -0000

Couldn't agree more. I am about to finish my first real drupal web site (e-commerce not too many content) I think it will be fine for me since i'm not expecting high traffic. But when i look at mysql's health monitor, i get scared by the rate of resource Drupal (+ the standard extensions like cck views...) uses. My initial background is Java and for DB stuff i use ORM frameworks like Hibernate (which handles db resource with extreme care) and the difference is so big, that's why i get scared. I never was really interested in php but after years of resistance, i admitted that in the WCMS area, php based ones beat any other platform (be it java or whatever) as far as things like features/concepts/understanding of the domain are concerned.
To me Drupal is like a car with the best ever interior/driving features, the engine and chassis work, you can drive it peacefully as long as you are not in a raceway. Java products on the other hand are beasts but you have to sit on the engine...lol

My 2 cent

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

Anon — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:18:55 -0000

You hit the nail on the head. Drupal core might work for simple sites, but
third-party modules, especially for Drupal 6.x, are frustrating to work with.
And as you mentioned, Drupal core leaves a lot to be desired; magic function
names, a cumbersome Web interface, and lack of backwards compatibility don't
make life easier.

Re: 4 Problems with Drupal | 20bits

VoiceHero — Sun, 04 May 2008 11:17:43 -0000

interesting read. fortunately all solutions evolve and so does drupal. to list the pros and cons of every open source cms is probably not the point once you decided to focus your efforts on some of them, since you are serving clients using them. so in that case i would simply contribute to fix the issues raised above or simply agree with the statement that it is some resultless criticism - similar statements can be made any other solution - whatever the angle is you want to look at it from.